EPI & WERO

Michael Salmony 0:12

Hello, my name is Michael Salmony and I'd like to welcome you to another episode of the Payments Trilogue. And today we have another very special guest, probably all eyes in Europe are on Martina. She is not only one of the few women in payments, that is a very rare thing, who have very responsible positions, and she's also trying to solve the sovereignty issue, the

fragmentation issue, the independence issue, lots of things all at once. So thank you very much Martina for joining us as chairman of the EPI initiative.

Martina Weimert 0:50

Thank you. Thank you for having me. But I'm the CEO, not the chairman. The chairman is Joachim Schmalzl.

Gijs Boudewijn 0:57

Thank you.

Michael Salmony 0:57

Thank you. I stand corrected. Now, I think everybody already knows what EPI is, who's vaguely attached to payments. So maybe you could tell us, if I could go straight into a controversy. Some of the regulators and others are saying the market is not getting its act together. You're completely fragmented and that's why we need to do things like CBDC or maybe impose regulation and

Is EPI now just another fragment or is it really going to provide the answer that we need?

Martina Weimert 1:33

Well, we will have to see, I cannot predict the future, but at least that's what we are trying to achieve. We are trying to achieve from a governance perspective and from a set up a solution that fits all Europe, which is tailor-made for European needs, also considering what the European merchant wants. yeah, so we are trying to overcome the fragmentation.

But like always when you are in a democratic environment, you have different voices or different perceptions of what is needed. So yes, in Europe, as we all know, we have different initiatives, including of the regulator, and we will have to see.

Michael Salmony 2:20

Okay, that's a pretty muted response. I was hoping you would have a bit more fight in you on that one, because I'm just trying to provoke you to say that you are going to be the answer to all our dreams.

Martina Weimert 2:31

Well, the dreams, at least the setup is there. I don't know any of the other solution that goes for a complete wallet setup. Wallet in the sense of offering services covering all payment situations and not just part of it like P2P or e-commerce. We are covering or working on all payment situations for consumers.

including value added services and including some of these regulatory initiatives, meaning that we are foreseen to integrate the digital euro as it will be available as a payment method or a funding source. So both would be possible. And on the other side, to work with the digital identity, which is foreseen at European level. So I think

That is a very broad scope and allows really to foresee an all-in-one solution for consumers at the end with one single integration for merchants. And considering also what we are aiming for at the standardization level at European size, I would say. So I think there is a high ambition, but of course we have to prove ourselves.

Michael Salmony 3:58

It's very impressive. Gijs, what do you think of that?

Gijs Boudewijn 4:02

Well, I have a question. So Martina, this is sort of in a little series on account to account payments instead of card payments. There's of course different views. As you said, we still live in a free world, in a democratic world still, so we cannot really force anyone to join the EPI. There's others that believe in a more bottom-up approach, let's say the top-down one or the start from scratch.

more specifically, let's say, EMPSA. My question would be, because we also talked to Chris Pirkner, you know him well, and he's all about winning the hearts and minds of the consumers and the retailers, and that specifically works best in domestic environments where you best know what the Italian consumer wants or the Austrian consumer wants, and you win those hearts and minds and then you make stuff interoperable for that little bit cross-border stuff.

So how do you cope with winning the hearts and minds of all the pan-European consumer and merchant?

Martina Weimert 5:11

Well, think it's indeed a huge challenge because yes, there are differences in Europe, but at the end, all pay with cards, for example, we all pay with solutions like Apple Pay. So yes, we are different, but then again, not so much. Right. So let's acknowledge the reality of the market. The second point is, yes, we can all have the ambition to win the hearts of somebody, but

There is a reality, for example, for a merchant, as long as we have national solutions, we will have different integrations which merchants have to cope with, which is an extra cost per market in which a merchant is present. There is no such thing as one integration, which is one of our big aims for the merchants to make it convenient and cost effective for them, right? As soon as they accept us.

In one country they can accept us anywhere there are no borders or differences for us anymore that's a real way how to overcome this fragmentation right and that's that's a fact that's not wishing or hoping this is reality so I think that is a very big importance but on the consumer side to come back to your point how do you do that in the different markets our approach as you also know from the Netherlands is to integrate

whatever is relevant in each of these national markets. So we integrate things which are important for the Belgians, for example, or for the Dutch. As long as we are entering in this market, we need to make sure that we satisfy the consumer needs that exist there. And yes, there are some diverging behaviors, just to give you one example. In many parts of Europe, we have P2P

sending money, but in some parts, like in the Netherlands, it's more requesting money. So yes, you need to cope for both, but that's what we do and which makes the solution also super attractive because then you have more and more services as soon as you cope also with these new market needs of different markets. Or for example, we are preparing the migration of Luxembourg. In Luxembourg,

the solution is very much used to pay bills. So we will have bill payments. It's just a better service for us even because we can extend the services that we offer and a consumer doesn't have to worry, does my service as I know it from my national market still work also outside of my home market when I'm traveling or when I'm in another country.

Michael Salmony 7:56

I mean, with this hearts and minds topic that Gijs has raised, isn't there also the element that people are used to paying with Blik or with Swish or with whatever, and they've already set their hearts and minds on that? And how do you get them to change their view on that?

Martina Weimert 8:14

Well, I think at a certain point as we will progress, there will be a moment of truth, right? Either we are successful thinking for it about, for example, in a couple of years, what will happen? If we are successful, we are covering 64 % of the European market in terms of transaction share. 64 % is not Europe. That's a nice starting point, as I always say.

And so for us, these countries, which are geographically one block, are quite important, not just because they are together today, but also because from these countries you have most of the European tourists. So in the future, when I'm a Spanish merchant, for example, will I not be interested in adopting the cheaper EPI solution, which my tourist customers use?

and which is cheaper than Visa and MasterCard or will I not? I think it all comes down on if the solution becomes domestically adopted and successful, then it will work elsewhere. And then we will find inroads like this tourism example into other markets. And by the way, there are many markets who today don't have any solution and who are just waiting to see,

What will finally happen in Europe? Where shall we really put our bets on? Right? So I think that is also what is happening right now. People are observing what is going on. What should they should they finally do? So I think we have to give it a little bit of time.

Gijs Boudewijn 9:56

If I may have one, so just to get myself with the hearts and minds. So for instance, I assume the Netherlands will be a nice test case because iDEAL is very much in the hearts and minds of the Dutch customer, including me. do iDEAL payments all the time in many shapes and forms. And this heart and mind of me will have to

migrate to a heart and mind for WERO because it will migrate to WERO at some point in time. So it's not impossible, but I guess it's going to be a good test case on how you transpose the heart and mind from one to the other.

Martina Weimert 10:40

But you know, the test case is already happening because in France we migrated the very much loved Paylib solution. French people were quite emotional about it, right? Nevertheless, mean, are overgrowing whatever Paylib has done already, right? And that is from a start by end of September until now. So it's not like this cannot happen.

It's of course our duty to make that migration smooth and easy for people, right? So I'm not saying it's easy and we can just wipe it away. So that's also why this takes time and has to be very carefully prepared. And that's what we're doing. I mean, it's a preparation for the Dutch market of more than two years, right? And before it even starts. And then it's a whole process. That's why, I mean, yes.

It is a whole process which has to be managed from the marketing and communication side, from the technical side, from the banking side, from the merchant side. But it's an ecosystem which we are trying to coordinate there. And that's what brings the complexity into it. it's also the beauty of existing assets like iDEAL in Europe and other solutions like

Payconic in Belgium and in Luxembourg or Paylib in France. So we have already, I think, successfully done our first big national migration. It worked very well. OK, you can say, yeah, but in France it was just pay P2P. We fully acknowledge this. But I think we are now up and ready to go also for the e-commerce part. We have done our test transactions in e-commerce.

I think we have to give the market the time and ourselves the time to carefully prepare and then run it in coordination with iDEAL, so with the solution itself and with the market players.

Michael Salmony 12:51

Sorry, no, I didn't want to interrupt you, Martina, but I do love your approach that you're really thinking about the ecosystem. You're thinking about the banks and the consumers and the merchants above all, which many forget when they launch new payment solutions. So that's absolutely wonderful. But one thing that has been missing from your list several times today was the fintechs. Maybe you could say something to Ralf and he could say something back about that dimension.

Martina Weimert 13:16

Yeah, of course. mean, we have been very, let's say, bank and acquirer centric because they are our shareholders and first members, right? Every shareholder has to be a member. You cannot be just a financial shareholder in an EPI. So yeah, and we needed to get them to a starting level. We are still working on it on the commercial payment sides. Let's be clear. So.

It's purely a question of timing, but I think we will see soon cooperation with FinTechs on especially value added services where FinTechs have services existing. And I think it will be interesting for them to work with us and become solution provider for EPI. Our platform is built like this. But yeah, we need to get the, let's say the base layer ready before we can

talk about the cream and the top ups, right? So that's what's happening right now.

Michael Salmony 14:20

Ralf, how do you feel as a top up?

Ralf Ohlhausen 14:23

Yeah, no, actually, firstly, I want to take the PIS or PISP or TPP perspective where I'm not sure whether there is much room for collaboration or whether it'll just be competition. But I actually have a question on many things you touched on already. so we have that, you know, one of the strengths of what's called the online banking e-payment providers like iDEAL

or Giropay or EPS, but also all PISPs, they are working on a way where the customers need nothing else than their existing bank account. So there is no onboarding. So you just, you have your bank account, that's it. You don't need anything else. You don't have to sign up for anything else. so therefore there is not...

They don't have this chicken and egg problem that most new payment methods have, which are two-sided models. You can't get the merchants while you don't have enough consumers. You can't get the consumers while you don't have enough merchants signed up. And so you have that critical math problem to overcome, which I think, or arguably, was one of the reasons why Paydirekt in Germany did not come off the ground fast enough, having exactly that issue, basically making everyone sign up.

Now, I see or I assume that with your wallet approach, which has, of course, lot of advantages, will you will then take up that disadvantage so that people will have to sign up. Is that the case or not? Or would it depend on the market?

Martina Weimert 16:06

In Europe, you cannot force existing clients into a solution except in some countries. For example, in the Netherlands, you cannot have a bank account without iDEAL. But that is because it is historically a very wide widespread solution. If today you go into the German market and you would say, well, all banking clients of the participating banks have to take the solution.

you would face a legal issue, right? So you cannot force that. You need to get somehow the consent of the consumer. To be honest, my personal position is I don't want to force anybody to use our solution. I want to convince people, right? So either they are convinced about the value proposition or they are not, right? So yes, it's a more lengthy approach. It's a more difficult approach. It's a different approach from the regulator also. We want to convince

convince through value. Right. So that is indeed a hurdle. It would be easier if we could mandate. It would be also easier if we could just mandate all over Europe and say, that's it, you have to do it now. But that's not Europe, at least not in my view. So in

Ralf Ohlhausen 17:23

I would have not assumed that obviously people can choose to use it or not, but the question is whether you have to sign up for it or not. From a PISP perspective, it's the same. So people don't have to use it. Obviously, they don't.

Martina Weimert 17:38

Honestly, Ralf, it's nothing. Today, what does it mean? In a banking app, for example, you get prompted, do you want to use it? This is a new service we have. Click. It doesn't mean that you have to type in your IBAN. It doesn't mean that you have to provide your address or whatever. These details are known by the banks. That's the reason why, honestly, I'm working with banks because they have a huge consumer base.

because they have already all that data. And nevertheless, we are in a nice position to ask a client, do you want, tick the box and nothing else. I don't think that this is a massive hurdle. It's yes, it's more difficult than to force somebody into something or to make it just mandatory on a certain bank account. But yeah, it is an additional step and coming back to you.

Gijs Boudewijn 18:36

onboarding Martina it's just opting in or out of the service that is offered.

Martina Weimert 18:40

Exactly so, but that's giving your consent. You're explicitly asked and until you have not done this, the service doesn't exist for you. So and then you can start using it or you can drop out after a certain time or whatever. But I understood, Ralf, that your point was also more on other players and other models like the PISPs, right?

Ralf Ohlhausen 19:05

Well, mean, my concern is that with making people well with the onboarding into a wallet or basically getting people to download a wallet to use start using a wallet to sign up or get an account or whatever is needed to do the wallet, you have this initial hurdle to get over, which is usually the biggest problem. That's usually why payment methods are failing because they are not getting into

the into the real estate or onto the phone of everyone. so that's the for me the biggest hurdle to overcome.

Martina Weimert 19:40

For me, the biggest hurdle is another one, is getting enough people in a market participating, so enough banks, right? Because especially when you do P2P, the whole thing is about reachability. You need to be able to reach somebody. when implementing the system, require that the bank in the back has implemented the system.

So we need more than the consumer, the bank in the first place, and then the consumer. The bank has to allow things. And by the way, this whole functioning is required also in other setups. So payment initiation requires that somebody has set it up in the backend and allows this to work, right? So this is anyhow needed. And for me, the need is, do we have

enough banks in a market who have the setup in the back and who are ready to accept a consumer that is wanting to use it. Today, I'm not able in all markets to offer to all the banks the solution because they have not implemented it yet. For example, in Belgium, the smaller banks are implementing the solution now.

So it will take some time. have the four big banks, but I don't have the smaller banks yet. And that's the process that it takes.

Ralf Ohlhausen 21:13

Maybe on that, because I understand that the existing PSD2 APIs are not good enough to support all the functionality that you want to offer. And of course, I know that very well. But we have that problem too, and we want to change it, or we started changing it with SPAA. So my question is, don't you think that the additional functionality that SPAA can provide, or maybe a SPAA2 or SPAA3 or whatever,

would be sufficient so that you could base those functionalities and those services on top of existing infrastructure rather than now basically asking banks to build some new infrastructure.

Martina Weimert 21:54

No I mean, we looked into open banking APIs very closely because at the beginning we didn't, let's say, reinvent the wheel. The problem is not so much the API layer, that's the thin layer. The real work is in the back end. For example, being able to do fund reservation, being able to do the split between consent and authorization.

in the rules layer also, because I can tell you before a service is really ready to be commercialized, especially then with merchants, consumer protection and so on, fraud prevention, it takes a lot of rules to be implemented. So I think the API layer, with all my respect for the work that has been done there, is the tiny part, the big part, the big implementation work that we also see with our members.

is in the back end and then on the rule side on the rule side before you get to a rule set that is European-wide acceptable that is so difficult and which has been such a long work to get to yeah this rule book and which is a real asset let's be honest that's something which people don't measure but that's a real achievement

that we could align with so many banks with different backgrounds, different also perceptions of what is needed in the market to come to one rule book. And so I don't think that you solve that with a SPAA or with another round of EPC work. And with all my respect, I think that it's a huge approach which has been taken there. And we are not so, so different on the API layer. We are very different.

when it comes to the details, when it comes to the ruling that goes with it, and with some feature scope also.

Michael Salmony 24:00

Maybe we just go back a little bit to the sort of more political side. What the hell is going on with the German banks? Can you explain that to me? I mean, half of them are in, half of them are out. Even those that are in sort of recommend now that the 17th attempt to create a national scheme has failed, that they then they send their customers to Paydirekt PayPal and and to Visa instead of sending them to WERO. What is going on there?

Martina Weimert 24:27

I think in Germany it's a kind of a debate. First of all, as a German, I think I can say it. think people like to criticize whatever comes up there, whatever. So it's not different for us. It's fine. I think that's maybe the market spirit a little bit, maybe also some level of frustration in the market.

And it's something we have to work on. So we have our participating banks. We will have more banks this year. it's a long lasting work that you have to trigger there because there is no quick win in payments. If you look back, whether it was for PayPal or Apple Pay, there are no quick wins. It takes that time and you need to convince people.

Again, we are in a democratic environment. You have to do it step by step. You have to prove your value and especially in Germany regarding PayPal. But we have other markets who have overcome this. We have some experience, I would say, around the table. Look at the Netherlands where PayPal is nowhere. So let's work on it. It will be work because you have an established situation. The situation is that you have a market

dominant player or several dominant players. And that's not an easy situation to address.

Gijs Boudewijn 25:56

Yeah, picking up on the more political side. First, I recall a lady from the Bundesbank explained to me why we need a digital euro, which was to fight PayPal. And as a Dutch person, said PayPal, fight PayPal. Because it had a 56 % market share in Germany, whereas less than 5 % in the Netherlands, where iDEAL has 72%, which is totally the other way around. So in those terms, you would need the digital euro to fight

iDEAL, but looking forward and you said long lasting and there is no easy solution. So we always try to sort of figure out what would it take to have really competitive, pan-European payment solutions that can stand up to the competition from outside of Europe. We need volume, need scale, need superior technical solutions, beautiful customer journeys. And then there is no silver bullet.

Would you agree that for the coming five to ten years we'll probably see a combination of the fragmented or coalition-like stuff like EuroPA and let's say that the block around Blik and a sort of north and a Nordic block and EPI all moving and EMPSA-like things sort of maybe

merging here and there, but eventually all sort of going to the same direction. But it's going to be a long and, well, not painful, but winding road with lots of different things still coexisting. But by the end of this, there's question one, do you also see that? And second, on the bottom up, EMPSA thing, I always puzzle because from the iDEAL perspective,

By the end of day, we may be big in the Netherlands, but by the end of the day, we're too small to innovate and remain competitive. So would you agree, second question, that the interoperability, the bottom-up model, is all well and fine, that you can technically interconnect that with the stuff that is out there today? From a technical perspective, then you can sort of have a roaming thing to have a business model, by the end of the day, you are not able to keep up innovation.

I would say in the interoperability model, whereas in the more top-down model of EPI, you would probably have the resources to innovate and keep up with those from outside of Europe.

Martina Weimert 28:32

Yeah, mean, you were exactly translating what we also saying. One of the reasons why we haven't gone for interoperability is that there is no synergy. No synergy at all while we are fighting against, let's be honest, giants. And we need to combine the financial means of the European banks and acquirers to pay for this innovation.

If we want to implement per market the same features, because that's what's more or less taking, maybe in different speeds and different pathways, but nevertheless at the end, we are all implementing more or less the same stuff, right? And implementing it X times versus one in a concentrated coordinated way, I think the math is pretty simple, but I agree with you, it will take years. It will take a very long time.

We all know it would have been, would it be possible to think about a combined or unique European solution? Like years ago, no, everybody was on the journey of saying, we have our own solution, maybe even a solution by individual banks, right? And now whether it's in Europe or in the US or elsewhere, we see these corporations

I'm coming to one unique solution. Zelle in the US is one unique solution, right? And you cannot achieve that economy of scale with these combination of national solutions and making them interoperable, which is technically maybe possible. Efficient, I seriously doubt it, but I can understand that. Of course they say, well, we have success on a national ground.

Why on earth would we give this up? This will take years. But that's how every European initiative is. Look at any European construction. It's not something that happens overnight or easily. People stick on to what they have, have different convictions, have different ideas of how things should be. And we have to see, we have to find out. I just hope that

Because we are democratic, because we accept that challenge, we will not get lost in Europe. Because meanwhile, other players continue to grow. And there will be a moment when it's too late. Sorry.

Michael Salmony 31:11

absolutely

What you say brings back memories of SEPA, right? When we all had our national solutions and then there was a lot of, we don't need any pan-European, it's only 3 % cross border, makes no sense. And now I don't think anybody would want to go back, right? I mean, SEPA is obviously the right thing that we did, although not everybody liked it at the time. On that topic, can I just refer back to something you said right at the beginning? You said you were thinking about, I wouldn't say interoperability because you don't like that.

but sort of how about working together with the digital euro? What would that look like? Does that mean the digital euro would be in the WERO app and vice versa? Or what's the thinking around that?

Martina Weimert 31:55

The thinking is, and I think we have already proven it in a POC, that we could integrate the digital euro and connect to the ECB systems. Meaning, I mean, we are coming from a consumer perspective. If I'm a consumer, I don't want to have X apps on my phone and now I do this and now I have to do this, but wait, how did it work? What was the authentication method or whatever?

So I think from a user perspective, having one shell out of which I can use whatever I want to do in my consumer behavior, be it doing a P2P transaction based on my bank account or based on my digital euro account. So it's an integration case that we foresee so far in which we could use

Again, either the digital euro as a funding source or if the digital euro really becomes a full-fledged solution to offer that solution out of the wallet.

Gijs Boudewijn 33:07

Okay

Ralf Ohlhausen 33:07

Could I ask you a bit specifically on that last point? Because I think we know and I heard many times, most payment methods could live with the digital euro that was acting as a funding source. So I think that would then be easy to integrate. That's what everyone was actually expecting and everyone, I guess, could accept. The problem comes when it actually becomes a separate commercial scheme. So if on

merchant's checkout page. have Visa, MasterCard, PayPal, Digital Euro, EPI and whatever else, Blik. So if they are all in competition there. So that's how I fail to understand how you want to integrate with a digital euro as not as a funding source but as a commercial scheme.

Martina Weimert 33:58

The commercial scheme first of all means that commercial rules of the digital euro would apply, right? Meaning whatever liability or functioning rules they would have, but also what kind of business model they would apply. But where we could cooperate is, for example, on acceptance standards. We could have similar acceptance standards, making it easier for merchants.

My personal view is that we have a responsibility to make life easier for European merchants and for European consumers, right? If we just maintain, we want to do our own thing and it has to be our own thing and nothing else, at least we need to give it a try to align on how does that work at the point of interaction for the merchant? Can we make it interoperable?

for the QR codes, but maybe also in the future for NFC protocols, can we apply the same standards there? And these are debates which are important to have. It depends on also how far the ECB is willing to go, but that is definitely a route that we are willing to explore.

Michael Salmony 35:14

So that would mean at a point of sale, I have a QR code or an NFC or Bluetooth or some facility, and then my banking app pops up and I have the choice. I can now pay with EPI or with the CBDC.

Martina Weimert 35:27

Yeah, and that is something we are already doing in some cases where we are going through, let's say, same routes, where we offer different choices. For example, we have a compatibility now in Belgium that you scan a QR code, but yet you can pay with Bancontact, Payconic or with WERO. Two different solutions, but nevertheless, one setup.

because we need to make it smooth and easy for the merchant.

Michael Salmony 36:01

How do you explain to the consumer that he should take the WERO rather than the CBDC? Because CBDC says we're all over Europe, we cost nothing. You know all the advantages of CBDC.

Martina Weimert 36:14

First all, don't think it will not cost anything. It will have a business model otherwise. It's just my personal belief it will not fly because people will not be interested to do anything for it. Then about the conviction of the consumer, it depends on what is the customer experience, what are the values and what the consumer finally wants.

I could imagine that in the future there might be specific payment situations where I want to use my digital euro account and others were much more happy using my current bank account.

Gijs Boudewijn 36:55

We

privacy concerns, right?

Martina Weimert 36:58

Yeah, there's privacy, there is maybe certain situations where I feel more comfortable using one or the other because I don't know what the digital euro can offer as consumer protection in the future. Is that the role of the central bank to offer consumer protection services, dispute management with merchants and so on? I think there will be differences. We have to see. I'm not at the ECB, so I can just...

take what I hear like everybody else and try to make sense out of it in the consumer environment. So I don't see the ECB in the future providing value added services. They themselves say that's not their role. So wherever you will have something which is maybe more service oriented, I think you want to rely on more commercial services because they will come with a certain price, but I will also have a different service as a consumer.

Michael Salmony 37:58

That's fair. And will you be offering consumer protection?

Martina Weimert 38:01

We will offer consumer protection. Yes.

Michael Salmony 38:04

That was a strong pull for people towards PayPal, I believe. So that sounds like a good thing.

Martina Weimert 38:09

It is necessary, especially in markets like Germany.

Michael Salmony 38:13

Yeah, absolutely. But it does sound more like competition, quite honestly, right? Between CBDC and the WERO, right? Although there are some common standards maybe and some, but it does sound like competition in the market and in the consumer.

Martina Weimert 38:29

It will very much depend on what the digital euro will be at the end. As you know, there are many debates there and there are also requests from various market players, especially from the banks on how they want the digital euro to evolve. So let's see what comes out of it. But we are definitely considering it, trying to understand. And we can only say that we are ready for cooperation and that we are

Yeah, working on it in terms of making it possible or envisaging that we could cooperate.

Gijs Boudewijn 39:05

But indeed, Martina, from a technical perspective, can do anything or you can do anything, of course. But if the from a banking perspective, if the retailers say, we love we would love the digital euro with but with close to zero fees and the banks are always think about having a digital euro, but with an adequate compensation model. And this puzzle has not been made yet. A solution with a digital euro that makes everybody happy.

There is no such thing yet.

Martina Weimert 39:37

But even though, I mean, even if it would be a very low cost model, I doubt that that is the key for success. Because I mean, today there are payment methods with a certain price tag, which are quite successful, starting with PayPal or look at the Chinese case where the digital yuan is very cheap as a solution, but that's not driving the adoption.

Pricing is not everything, let's not forget that. It's not because you make it zero cost or very cheap that you are guaranteed in the success. We know that it is a very complex combination of various aspects and factors that you need to combine to make it.

Gijs Boudewijn 40:24

You're triggering me because banknote payments, the scripture of money seems to be free, but of course they are not because they incur a shitload of cost. But the consumer doesn't see it and loves to use it because they believe it's free, but it's not.

Martina Weimert 40:39

Let's see if it continues like this, can guarantee you the consumer will feel it because the cost will become unbearable in Europe.

Michael Salmony 40:48

You mean the cost of cash? Is that what you're saying?

Martina Weimert 40:50

No, the cost of payment means, which are today perceived as free of charge, or at least as very cheap for the consumer, like cards. I don't think that this will continue in the long run with the current fee increases that we see, because at a certain point, players, whether it's banks or acquirers, will charge it also to the consumer, more than what they do today with the cardholder fees.

Michael Salmony 41:19

That sounds like a safe prediction, yeah. Do we have anything else we want to grill Martina on since we have this opportunity because we're gradually reaching the end of our time?

Ralf Ohlhausen 41:31

Well, mean, you alluded to it earlier. Of course, I think it would be interesting from a fintech perspective if there was anything a bit more that you could say about potential cooperation there on the value-added services side that you mentioned.

Martina Weimert 41:45

Yeah, we are evaluating right now with the merchants, which are the first value-added services that we should integrate. We have our own idea on this, but we want to get the confirmation from the merchant side. And then we will be definitely open for the cooperation with Fintechs. I mean, we really want this because we don't think that we have to build everything on our own. Cooperation with Fintechs in this area would be great.

Michael Salmony 42:17

Wonderful. Well, unless Gijs wants to jump in and defend the German banks, then I think we've reached the conclusion. Thank you so much, Martina. You've been super patient with us. We've been firing all these impolite questions at you and you've answered them very robustly. Congratulations on that. And of course, we wish you so much success and you are our flagship in Europe and we really hope that you have success.

Martina Weimert 42:43

Thank you. Thanks for having me. Thanks a lot. Bye bye.

Michael Salmony 42:46

Thank you very much.