ClearBank

Michael Salmony 0:12

Hello, my name is Michael Salmony and Ralf Javier and I would like to welcome you to another episode of the Payments Trilogue. And this time we have a very interesting guest, Ezequiel from ClearBank, which is a B2B bank. It's something we many people don't even know exists. Before I make an attempt, maybe it's best if you, Ezequiel, could explain what you actually do.

Ezequiel Canestrari 0:36

Yeah, absolutely. So ClearBank has now we are celebrating our 10th anniversary. We see ourselves as an infrastructure bank. ⁓ And one of the things we struggle ⁓ on a daily basis is are we a technology ⁓ company with a banking license or are we a bank with great technology? And the reality is it's a mix of both. We are here to unlock our customer potential. We are here to be in the back.

You won't see flashy signs of clear ranks on the streets, but we are there supporting really big customers in the UK and Europe to ensure that payments go through real time 24-7 without any ⁓ disruptions.

Michael Salmony 1:22

I mean, the way I've understood you is if I want to build a neo bank, for example, I don't have to do everything myself. I would ask you to be sort of my back office as it were, and you would do the banking for me and I can concentrate on the value add that I'm creating. Is that roughly right or is that completely wrong?

Ezequiel Canestrari 1:39

Exactly.

So we're there in the background to support ⁓ any financial institution that wants to add value and make change the landscape of this industry.

Michael Salmony 1:54

Okay, fantastic. And you are also very active in the European market and I think you've looked particularly at SEPA and done some research there. Maybe you could share a little bit about that.

Ezequiel Canestrari 2:06

Yeah, so we have obtained our banking license in the summer of 2024 and since then we had a great run. We have since we got our license and we formally launched, we have onboarded more than 40 customers. We are processing about a million transactions per month. We passport into 22 countries and we already have opened a branch in France. So we had a terrific run, but

In the middle of all of that, the new instant payment regulation went live and we were wondering what does this mean to the market? So we worked together with Plaid and we commissioned Celent to do an assessment ⁓ and review of the market. How are the various entities prepared to face the new regulations? Are they ready?

How does this will shape the market itself? And I think there are some very expected results, but there were some results that for me made a massive difference as to how Europe is going on the SEPA Instant way.

Michael Salmony 3:24

Tell us more. The unexpected results that will be particularly interesting because we're all separate. Tell us what we were surprising.

Ezequiel Canestrari 3:28

Yes,

I think it wasn't ⁓ really a surprise that companies will be compliant. I think obviously banks, all regulations in Europe, you have enough time to get ready. saying that banks will be compliant for all the deadlines and even ahead of 2027 wasn't a surprise. But what made it different for me was

that now SEPA Instant or real-time payments, it's really not a case of ⁓ an adoption. ⁓ A couple of years ago, the discussion was, well, will actually SEPA Instant take off? Will you have the right reachability across Europe? That's passed. That's nobody really, really caring more because SEPA Instant is a reality. We are seeing a significant flow of payments already since October. ⁓

from SEPA credit transfer to SEPA Instant. But the question now is, can you be operating 24-7 and comply with the requirements of SEPA Instant? And what does that mean for sponsor banks? What does that mean for EMIs? Where is the value added? Because maybe a couple of years ago, you would say, I can offer SEPA Instant, which is better than SEPA CT because...

the limits, the settlement time and so on. But now it's a commodity. Everyone has it. So where do you add the value? And I think that was very interesting because banks like ClearBank, where we are an infrastructure bank, that's where you add the differentiation. So ⁓ Michael, you mentioned before, well, if I'm a neo bank, can go to ClearBank and forget about my issues.

That's exactly it. Can the sponsor banks do that? Can the sponsor bank build the trust and the comfort for new EMI's, new PSPs to actually for them to focus in the new products? And the reality is not so many can because compliance is just the starting line, not the finish line. We will all be compliant that there's no doubt it's going to be more expensive for some.

There are going to be some that will be till the very last minute fighting to be compliant, but at the end of the day, everyone will be. The difference is the quality and the trust that you create with your customers.

Ralf Ohlhausen 6:09

Could I ask you, because he, well, you started in the UK and I know some, actually, I can't remember how long it was. When did you, when was the company created?

Ezequiel Canestrari 6:21

So it was created in 2016. So we're celebrating the 10th anniversary this year.

Ralf Ohlhausen 6:25

Yeah.

Yeah, it's 10 years. I was to say about 10 years. Yeah. And I do remember that it was called well, this is the first clearing bank since 250 years That was a that was a fun fact sort of time and I guess, are you still has that there has been other ones? and, and then the second and second part of the question coming.

out of the UK into Europe is that because well driven by you or pulled by customers from Europe because you're trying there's a gap here in the rest of Europe, not having such a modern clearing bank.

Ezequiel Canestrari 7:09

Yeah, so to answer your first question, we have seen in the UK other participants entering the market with a very similar approach to ours. And I think that's a validation of our business model and the great job we've done over the last 10 years. And to answer your second question, I say it's purely driven by our customers.

Javier 7:11

you

you

Ezequiel Canestrari 7:39

Over the past few years, lot of our customers were knocking at our doors and saying, we want exactly the same that you're giving us in the UK, but in Europe. Why can we not have that? And it was for us, it was a very straightforward decision. We know that today, even though there's a much more competitive market in Europe, the payment schemes are different.

but also the amount of banks, the PSPs and the difference between each one of the countries. We know it was going to be a bit more challenging. There are differences to the UK, but we knew that also having our platform in the cloud, fully cloud native, having a real time API, that was going to be successful wherever we go. And there are certain things, not only just our tech, but our people.

that made a difference. I mentioned before some stats as to how our first year was. Like literally we launched in March 2025 fully with all the three main payment scheme, Target 2, SEPA CT and SEPA Instant. Having 40 customers of which more than half are net new, not coming from the UK, that's a testament to what we have, the products we have and the trust that we are able to build in the market.

Javier 9:08

I have a question and maybe you will be able to correct me in my analysis if I am wrong. I see ClearBank as another source of efficiency to the European banking industry in the sense that it will help or it helps the industry to rationalize. Many times it has been criticized because there is a lot of or an excess of capacity being installed and that we need to ⁓ rationalize that and to get fitter.

to what the real needs of the European market are. And we know that there are many national champions, but when we come to pan-European, we find none. But we know their points of view because they are very vocal. We know the obstacles. They know what they criticize, what they are facing. But usually we neglect the views of the smaller participants. And I think that you focus in helping those smaller participants, many of which...

may be independent, they don't have a federation to which they can request help. What are they claiming? What are the difficulties these smaller players find in the European landscape that we maybe even don't know or they get unnoticed because nobody expresses them?

Ezequiel Canestrari 10:27

That's a very good question. It does change between the UK and Europe. I think the requirements are slightly different. But I think in some cases, regulation can be very onerous on the small institutions and that's where the likes of ClearBank and other parties help. Because if you can...

rely on another third party to look after your ⁓ infrastructure, your compliance, then you can focus on the compliance that really matters to you, which is a compliant ⁓ for your own products. I think the challenge we've seen is, or we have heard from our customers, is the differences between ⁓ adoption of regulations

between countries, ⁓ that it's not necessarily the same. ⁓ There's always certain nuances in order to be operating in different markets. when we first opened in Europe, we knew that there were gonna be differences between UK and Europe and that Europe is not a single country. But we were surprised as to the level of differences between them. And I think a lot of our...

⁓ customers struggle with that and they have been surprised by some of these requests. So what that means is in many cases customers would love to just go on and safeguard funds with us in a particular region or whatnot ⁓ and yet the process that they had to follow to do so in one country it's very different with different timelines in another country and that creates the level of

⁓ additional bureaucracy and additional cost for these entities. When you're a startup, neo-bank, ⁓ every penny counts. So the more you can ⁓ create a standard across the European region, the better for these entities. And that's one of the key things we've heard from...

Javier 12:47

OK, so it's there are a lot a lot of local details, therefore a lot of devils dwelling in the details.

Ezequiel Canestrari 12:53

Yeah.

Michael Salmony 12:56

So is a way of thinking about it, is it's like a sort of compliance as a service and payment as a service so that the company can focus on its value adds and not on these devils in the details?

Ezequiel Canestrari 13:10

Absolutely. think, ⁓ and in a way, certain regulation helps. ⁓ So if you think about DORA ⁓ or even MiCA, what it does, it really creates a very clear framework. ⁓ DORA is very, very, very clear. ⁓ And what that allows us to do is you know what to request from your suppliers.

So you know what they need to provide you, you know the wording in the contract. So they can actually, if you say you have all of these, then we can be comfortable. And that takes a lot of the burden out of those smaller institutions, because it's a level playing field for all of them. So you don't have to go on if you want a better level of resilience by your provider.

Michael Salmony 13:52

Mm-hmm.

Ezequiel Canestrari 14:09

You don't have to go and request and have a fight and challenge them and discuss for months and months and months. There's a standard which is DORA. And that helps a lot. So what we're trying to do is help with that. So we can comfortably say, look, your payments will be processed real time. We won't truncate, we won't alter any data that goes through the payment flow.

You'll get all the information we get. You can do with that data what you want because it's your data. You don't have to worry about changes in ISO standards. You don't have to worry about DORA coming in. You don't need to worry about the IPR. You don't need to worry about verification of payee. We take care of that. And as you said, it's compliance as a service combined with payment as a service. And in many cases,

Michael Salmony 15:01

Yeah, that's a

Hmm. Hmm.

Ezequiel Canestrari 15:08

⁓ rightly or wrongly, they come hand in hand.

Michael Salmony 15:13

Yeah.

Javier 15:13

Okay.

Ralf Ohlhausen 15:13

Yeah, if I could ask you then, ⁓ because many of your customers, if not most, I guess are emoney institutions or fintechs ⁓ that need like a sponsor bank, but now regulation is changing. You mentioned IPR, ⁓ changing the settlement finality directive and bringing the opportunity to the EMIs directly.

Javier 15:13

Okay.

Ralf Ohlhausen 15:41

to join

the payment systems and to sort of bypass ⁓ you or what you've the services that they've taken from you. ⁓ if I understand you correctly here, going that direct route is not that straightforward. you might, well, with you as a partner, you can maybe

cherry pick what you want to do directly and what you rather want to leave to someone else to do.

Javier 16:13

Okay.

Ezequiel Canestrari 16:15

That's

absolutely correct. We know that ⁓ some of our customers might choose to go directly ⁓ because of their size, because of their offering. That happens. ⁓ But we also know that for now, at least based on conversation we had with them, the vast majority are not thinking about that. ⁓ Becoming a direct participant of schemes like SEPA Instant, it's not easy.

⁓ being compliant with all of these regulations that are coming out almost ⁓ constantly ⁓ is expensive and the cost of getting it wrong is massive. So if you can get a partner that can support you and can give you the confidence that they are on top of it, why take the risk? Why not focus on what you do best?

Michael Salmony 17:14

That makes a lot of sense. mean, it still begs the question a little bit of where the boundary is with other sort of backend providers, you know, from ERPs or core banking service providers or others who do that. Maybe sort of looking at some of your clients would be helpful. mean, just look at it because you don't only have sort of small startup fintechs, you have people like ⁓ Coinbase who are enormous in the crypto and ⁓

stable coin market, have somebody like TrueLayer, who's sort of a big integrator in APIs in the open banking space. And you have Microsoft, who, well, we all know what Microsoft does. Why do these companies need you?

Ezequiel Canestrari 17:58

I think it goes back to the confidence that we provide them. If you look at some of our customers, you mentioned TrueLayer. With TrueLayer, we've been partnering for probably six, seven years, it's been a long time, similar with Coinbase. And we have not kept the relationship.

as it was years ago. If anything, we've grown that relation further and further. ⁓ We have seen, because of our ability to process payments real time, we have seen a significant amount of ⁓ account ⁓ payment providers coming to us because we are able to really real time, ⁓ a proper... ⁓

five 9s availability, no downtime for ⁓ upgrades and great customer support. So when your payments are related to volume and the speed of those and the reliability of those, that's where you come to our partner like us to do that.

Javier 19:10

Yeah.

Michael Salmony 19:14

But it doesn't quite

make sense to me. mean, Microsoft and TrueLayer and Coinbase, just to stay with this example, they have a huge experience in programming and a lot of them have a huge experience in payments. Why do they need you?

Ezequiel Canestrari 19:29

So Microsoft for us is a provider, right? Our relationship with Microsoft started 10 years ago and we are partnering with them since then. Our platform has built ⁓ on Azure being cloud native with the intention to expand that. So the relationship with Microsoft is less of a client. They're not a client for us, but they are providing us the right

platform for us to support our customers and the right level of resilience. So we have different zones that provide the redundancy across them. even if ⁓ one zone goes down, we can jump into the other and it's absolutely seamless. Even in some of the global outages that there have been over the past few years with platform providers, we've been almost

unaffected due to that level of resilience that we have. ⁓ With the likes of Coinbase. Coinbase business model is, as you mentioned, ⁓ the crypto exchange. Their focus is on that. They are looking into how can they service their ⁓ digital asset customers better, ⁓ offering different range of services. So ⁓ the payment in fiat is ancillary to what they do.

So why would ⁓ Coinbase spend a proper fortune building a payment platform, building the additional compliance that they may have to do with the scheme when their core is the digital asset element of it? Similarly, there are components that in the UK, for example, they wanted to offer DGS, sorry, FSCS protected accounts.

and they wanted to pay interest on those balances. So they came to us ⁓ to be able to offer an embedded banking solution for those customers. And that's purely from a banking point of view. They would have to go and obtain a banking license for that. So that's where the partnership, it's critical and it goes back to ⁓ our ambition of being ⁓ unlocking our cost, the purpose to be unlocking our customers potential. In the case of

Javier 21:52

And it's,

Ezequiel Canestrari 21:53

To layer, again,

Javier 21:53

yeah.

Ezequiel Canestrari 21:54

they want to be able to have a proper partner in place that can provide all those payments while they can capture the inflow of payments working with the e-commerce and setting those rails and then being able to focus on the actual set, leaving the settlement to another partner.

Javier 22:15

How do you see the payments as a service or bank as a service market? Is competition growing? Do you see new entrants getting into your activities? Or is it more an empty space yet? Or does it go neighborhood by neighborhood like many other things in Europe? How do you see your competition?

Ezequiel Canestrari 22:38

⁓ I think embedded banking as we do it in the UK is growing fantastically ⁓ and it's incredible. We have a massive pipeline on that front. We have been able to scale that proposition ⁓ over the past couple of years and what we've seen is ⁓ a growth and an evolution of the product itself.

And that comes from working very closely to our customers, understanding what their needs are and being able to adapt to that. We are seeing a bit more competition because again, it's a very successful model, the one we've implemented. So it's expected to see players coming in. ⁓ But so far we continue to be the leading provider. In Europe, it's still early days for us. We have...

the priority has been to focus in on what we call agency banking, that it's our core and then define how do we want to operate. What we've seen in Europe ⁓ is a different appetite towards the protection from banks. So in the UK, we've seen that FSCS protection is absolutely critical. Customers really want that protection.

in Europe, they seem to be more comfortable with safeguarding rather than going into the DGS, which is something that we were surprised because we have interviewed a number of customers, we had conversations and they trust that the safeguarding regulation is in their eyes as strong as the DGS. So then ⁓ that ends up being ⁓

differentiating to how we see embedded banking. We have also seen...

Michael Salmony 24:40

Can you explain that a bit more?

Sorry, you just explain that a bit more? That's this really interesting point. What is the DGA and the safeguarding and the consumer protection and how are they different? Can you drill down a bit on that?

Ezequiel Canestrari 24:54

Yeah, so there are mainly two schemes, one in the UK and one in Europe. ⁓ One is the deposit guarantee scheme in Europe, which ⁓ basically protects funds, ⁓ individual funds up to ⁓ 100,000 euros. ⁓ Safeguarding is what EMI's can basically do. It's a different regime. It's how funds are segregated.

in the case of ⁓ an emoney institution or a PSP goes down, how funds are segregated to be able to be sure that they can get paid back. ⁓ The idea behind DGS is that if the funds can be repaid, it has the backing of the central banks and the ability to be repaid in a really quick ⁓ timeline.

it's just a couple of days. ⁓ In the UK, which FSCS, which is equivalent of DGS in Europe, we have seen that our customers really value that, really value the comfort of the Bank of England and the regulators in the UK will be able to return the funds in just a matter of days. While safeguarding is there, there's a

preference and extra comfort on that day the insurance let's call it ⁓ In Europe we're seeing that customers feel more comfortable or as comfortable just leveraging the safeguarding ⁓ Regulations ⁓ which means for example the EMI's the funds ⁓ So a customer of ours would have their own funds and then they have

separated their customer funds in another account provided by us and they need to keep a record on how those funds are segregated. Now that takes a bit longer in the case of the bankruptcy of the EMI and the PSP but in Europe that feels to be good enough so it's just an interesting difference in what we're seeing in the market.

Ralf Ohlhausen 27:23

you, you just opened a branch in France, in France, I think. And why is it that a like a cloud business platform like you ⁓ opened a branch in a in a country and why France?

Javier 27:28

you

Ezequiel Canestrari 27:41

So maybe taking a step back, ⁓ I think Javier mentioned it earlier, we're a Pan-European player. We're not here just to serve the Dutch market. We want to be present and support the whole of Europe. So that's why we have made a conscious effort to passport ⁓ across the region. ⁓ What we've noticed is that certain markets,

⁓ have different ways of working, ways of interacting. In some cases, the cultural element and language becomes much more critical. So with passporting, we're able to sell from the Netherlands into those countries. So I'm able to sell to someone in Italy without any problem, right, if I passported there, but being based in the Netherlands. If

I look at the likes of France, ⁓ certain cultural elements, ⁓ background elements, ⁓ language, it's critical. ⁓ French people prefer engaging with French people. ⁓ And in order to do that, in order to have people on the ground, the only way to do it due to regulations is to open a branch. Now, just to be clear, we don't have a

physical branch like old school banks with the logo behind us. It's just a small office where we have ⁓ our salespeople that then engage with the customers. And we see ⁓ France, why France? We see France as a massive ⁓ FinTech hub that has been growing over the past couple of years. And given ⁓ the type of customers we're after.

⁓ it made sense to target France as our first place to have a branch.

Michael Salmony 29:43

Very good. think we're gradually reaching the end of our time. just one tiny... ⁓ Ralf has another comment.

Ralf Ohlhausen 29:50

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Before

we run out of time, I, you explained earlier why it makes sense for the likes of Coinbase to partner with you rather than doing their own going too deep into fiat payments themselves. But then why is it that you want to launch or have, think, launch your own coin? And

And when we're on that stable coin subject, I think you tried to do that in the UK with not enough luck, or whatever wasn't supported by regulation. And then you partnered, I think with Circle and then the whole thing in Europe. So could you enlighten us a bit about why you're going into stable coins and why ⁓ you're chosen the way you choose?

Ezequiel Canestrari 30:43

Yeah, absolutely. So

I think a lot of people think that stablecoin will come and replace ⁓ the payment rails. We don't necessarily think that way. ⁓ We do believe that stablecoins particularly will play a critical role over the next ⁓ few years, particularly in cross-border payments. ⁓ It's true that in the UK, ⁓ due to the evolution of the regulation, we weren't able to progress it.

much further and we keep on working with regulators ⁓ in the UK and supporting them in their journey ⁓ on digital assets. ⁓ In Europe on the other hand, we have MiCA which is very clear on what you can and cannot do. And I think going back to what I said at the beginning, we want to be a provider that where you don't have to worry about the payment stuff. We're in the background to support you.

So we have the, for us it's almost like a triangle, right? We have the standard rails with SEPA instant at the forefront. We have the API connectivity allowing you to do real time. And the third leg of that stool is the stable cons, especially for cross border and allowing our customers that need to process payments cross border real time to do so.

We are always at the forefront of innovation. Today, making a cross-border payment can take days. I was not so long in a conference where you can see how the flow of cross-border payments ⁓ is set up. It's nightmare material. ⁓ It takes forever, it's expensive, and most of the time you don't even know where your payment is.

If we can support our customers providing a solution that is almost real time in a couple of minutes at the latest to make a payment to the US or to any other region, why not? And again, it's enabled them to think how they want to offer their product and then we will take care of it. On our side, we didn't want to create our own coin, but...

we knew that we needed to be ⁓ supporting digital assets and stablecoin and that's why we partnered with Circle to issue EURC and USDC. So we would be minting and redeeming EURC and USDC ⁓ for our customers and enable them to do cross-border payments. ⁓ It's in our plans also to join ⁓ the Circle payment network to further enhance all of

and we'll keep an eye and we'll keep on working very closely in the UK to see how the regulations evolve and once there's clarity and certainty on what that would look like we'll progress in a similar fashion.

Michael Salmony 34:00

So.

Javier 34:00

Have

you already adhered to the OCT, the One-Legout Credit Transfer of the EPC? Because for those course jurisdiction transactions, you cannot use the regular SCT inst.

Ezequiel Canestrari 34:15

Correct. So ⁓ we are in the process of doing that because we haven't fully launched our product offering. That's scheduled for May. But yes, we are very much in contact with the EPC to be, again, very much compliant ahead of launching any sort of product.

Javier 34:36

Okay, good news. Thank you.

Michael Salmony 34:39

Also that you're helping to get some European stable coins out there. I think that's a very welcome thing. This thing is so dominated by US-denominated stable coins that we really need an alternative, especially in Europe. So all power to you there. So what you're doing there is really sort of trying to create global instant by encouraging this stable coin across the world. And in your SEPA study, you very much also looked at the instant. And my final question would just be,

Are you actually seeing new use cases? Because that was always one of the hopes that SEPA Instant would create, not just, especially consumer payments faster. I've never been a huge fan of that. Whether my dentist gets the, when I pay him, whether he gets it in 10 seconds or next day, has never been a problem for me as a consumer. But in the B2B space, SEPA Instant is hugely important, right? Because the tanker can leave the harbor if the insurance is paid and treasury and whatever.

So are you seeing any new use cases on separation? ⁓

Ezequiel Canestrari 35:39

Yeah,

100%. We are seeing ⁓ migration from old school payment methods like ⁓ checks and cash in a number of areas, ⁓ more of account to account payments. But to your point, we are looking and working together with our customers on really innovative ways of operating and together with AI.

Javier 35:50

Yes.

Ezequiel Canestrari 36:06

which you can't have an interview without mentioning AI. ⁓ It's how can you streamline ⁓ an end-to-end process and making sure that the payment is not a blocker? So ⁓ as you said, you might have a... Even for consumers, it's interesting, right? Because now you can buy a car and in 10 seconds you get the transaction. You don't need to like...

in the previous year, send the transfer and wait two days to settle and hope for the best and then go and pick up the car. You can be there and make a transfer, 10 seconds, the dealership gets the transfer, you sign the paperwork, you take the car. And we are seeing ⁓ many more of those use cases coming up. We are seeing a lot of new smaller ⁓ institutions that come with really innovative ideas.

And they are very niche ideas. are seeing ⁓ prospects of ours that they are looking at a very specific ⁓ payment flow and targeting those. Especially, and you mentioned quite rightly, the ships. So ⁓ those large tankers that need to get across the ocean, there's a lot of paperwork.

required to get one of those containers on a boat and over across the ocean. Can a company come in, automate the whole paperwork, but then automate all of the payments and do an easy reconciliation of those? And we have seen a number of prospects looking into that. And for that, again, you need real time payments, you need all of the information and you need someone where you can rely on.

So you don't have a problem where you want to ⁓ get a container on a boat, but the platform is down and the payment didn't go through.

Michael Salmony 38:14

Excellent. Okay, I think our time really has come to an end, but you've been super helpful, Ezequiel. That's been very enlightening. You have a different model to what we usually talk to banks and fintechs. You're somewhere where it doesn't really know, is it a fintech, is it a payment player, is it a bank, is it a cloud provider, is it a stablecoin issuer? You seem to be doing a lot of things and doing everything that really makes sense and is really moving us all forward.

So thank you, thank you for that. Okay, I think I can just ⁓ thank you, Ezequiel and Ralf and Javier and everybody listening and hope it was fun and look forward to seeing you next time.

Ezequiel Canestrari 38:57

Thank you your time. was a pleasure.

Javier 38:58

you. Thank you, Ezequiel.